Wheel of Time Wednesday: Special Interview with Rafe Lee Judkins on Queer Representation in Fantasy
Rafe Lee Judkins, creator and showrunner for "The Wheel of Time" on Amazon, spoke about why queer representation is so important in the show and why he's thrilled more queer fans are discovering it.
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I think it’s safe to say that The Wheel of Time is one of the queerest fantasy shows on TV right now. Unlike both House of the Dragon and The Rings of Power, this series–based on the bestselling books by Robert Jordan–has made a point of including queer characters and queer storylines, avoiding the tokenizing and stereotyping that are all too frequent in pop culture depictions of LGBTQ+ people. I would even go so far as to say that it has woven a deeply queer sensibility into the very essence of the show itself, building on the remarkably diverse milieu that Robert Jordan himself created and giving us a story and a secondary fantasy setting in which everyone can feel at home.
Last week I had the pleasure of speaking with Rafe Lee Judkins, the showrunner for The Wheel of Time, who has been open about his desire to make the show a welcoming one for all types of queer viewers and experiences, drawing out the queer resonances that have always been present in Jordan’s work. Whether it’s first-sisters, mothers like Lanfear and Moiraine, or the abundance of male bosoms on display, it’s safe to say that there’s something for every variety of queer viewer in this fantasy show.
The interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
T.J.: Thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity. It’s great to speak with you. I’ve been a passionate fan of The Wheel of Time–the books and the show–ever since the show started back in 2021, 2022.
Rafe: Thank you so much.
T.J.: So I have four questions. I know we’re on a time limit, so I’ll go ahead and start with my first question. One of the things that I’ve always enjoyed about The Wheel of Time is the diversity of queer representation. We have polyamory, we have a great sapphic couple–which has gone through three seasons–so I was just wondering if you could speak as to why it’s so important for you as an openly queer person and creator to bring out what’s often more implicit in the novels themselves.
Rafe: For me, you know, as a young guy who loved fantasy but was also realizing that I was queer, there were not a lot of series that I loved where I saw myself in them. The Wheel of Time was the first one that I read and I said, “I’m in there. Like I feel like people like me are in this book.’ And it may be implicit and it may be a little wink-wink nudge-judge but it’s there and it’s very fully there. Sometimes you see, you know, first-sisters and pillow friends and all of these things that are not just a little whisper on the side of the world but are pretty intrinsic to the core relationships in the book series. Like Moiraine’s and Siuan’s relationship is essential to the plot and to both of their stories inside of the books. Elayne and Aviendha together, their relationship in many ways even in the books is as important as the relationship they each have with Rand. So you know I saw myself in there and I felt like with the show too I want people to be able to see themselves. Even though it’s been 30 years since Wheel of Time came out we still don’t have a lot of big fantasy content on TV with queer stories centered and having real emotional and plot stakes attached to them.
T.J.: Absolutely. So that leads to my second question, which is about Siuan and Moiraine, who obviously are one of the core couples in the show. What strikes me as a viewer who is, like you, queer and a passionate fantasy fan, is that their story is so poignant and even tragic but it doesn’t fall into the sad lesbian trope. Could you elaborate how you struck that exquisite balance that a less talented showrunner and team of writers could pull off?
Rafe: That’s very kind of you. We have a few writers in the room throughout the seasons who have been passionate about the Moiraine/Siuan relationship, none more so than Justine Gilmer, who is my number two and right hand woman on the show. It’s always been important to me to not just do my version of what I think that story should be but to let other voices, queer and nonqueer, weigh in on it, and so we all have, including Sophie and Rosamund, who play the two characters and [they’ve weighed in on] what matters to them. One thing that they talked about at the end of season one was: these are two really powerful women, extremely driven to achieve whatever they set out to achieve. It would be interesting to see them in conflict with one another. That was something that was interesting to Rosamund and Sophie. So when we looked at season two, we thought about: “How can we find two people, who happen to be women, who love each other, but are also in opposition in terms of what they need and want from the world around them?vAnd they’re not just people who will sit on their hands because their lover wants something different than them.” So I think, you know, to me, finding those layers of their relationship and making them feel as real as possible was the best way to show them.
Sometimes you get nervous when you only have one queer relationship or one queer character in a show. To me that makes me very nervous as a writer. I think the great gift is that we have so many queer characters on the show, because it does let them each exist in their own world and exist in their stories without having to bear the weight of the whole queer experience within the show. I think that by having more queer characters it lets them not be so tropey because there’s not so much pressure on them; they can also still really love each other. I think finding that for them is easier when you just let the characters lead and not feel like you’re burdened with what they have to deliver for our whole community.
T.J.: Sure, and that leads into my third question. One of the things that’s really exciting about Wheel of Time, as you’ve alluded to, is that queerness is built into the world-building and that’s a very rare thing. I wanted to hear more about how you find that balance between queer inclusion without making it feel tokenized. And you alluded to this earlier, but what about Jordan’s work in particular lends itself to that kind of reading?
Rafe: I think one thing that was so amazing when I read The Wheel of Time was that queerness existed, and that was something that was true of our world, too. It’s something that’s really interesting to see in this world–in season three we go and meet the Aiel, who are a really important culture in the Wheel of Time books and very important in the show too, and they have this idea of something called first-sisters, which is two women who essentially have a marriage ceremony with each other first and foremost, and this is their core bond in life, be it romantic or platonic. It can be both of those things, and it is in the books. So we get to see two formal sets of first-sisters, and then another budding set of first-sisters in the show in season three. So even within the Aiel culture we get to see multiple versions of queerness in the world.
With the Aes Sedai at the White Tower, this is essentially an all-female society and female same-sex relationships in the Tower are really important in the books. A pillow friend is a very different thing than a first-sister, but both can incorporate two women who are truly in love with each other. And so I think that’s kind of the interesting thing you see around the world of Wheel of Time; queerness can exist and different cultures approach it differently but all of them have space for love. That is something that’s really interesting and we try to show that as much as we can.
T.J.: My last sort of light-hearted question. What do you make of the fans who thirst after Rand and Mat and Perrin and all of the other male “bosoms” as social media put it, as well as worship “mothers” like dommy mommy Lanfear, Moiraine, Siuan, and of course Liandrin. I just wanted to get that light-hearted question in there.
Rafe: I mean we love it. We talk about it in the room all the time. We have writers in the room who are like, “Lanfear stomp on my neck and tell me what to do.” And they have just as strong a voice as the writers who love Egwene and want to see her and Rand make it through to the end. We have just as much fun with the characters and I think our cast do as well. They get that there’s a fun to it. Donal, who plays Mat, he’s so charming and flirtatious and that flirtation has no bounds in the show. You see him flirting with men, with women, because he understands what he’s got.
T.J.: So that’s really great. I am very active on social media and there is a huge passionate following of male bosoms and mothering. There are very flippant, but also deeply held engagements that queer fans bring to a show like this one.
Rafe: I feel the same way. I’m really glad people can see themselves in this show and that they can let the mothers mother.
T.J.: I had to get that question in there because I know people will be wondering about that.
Rafe: It’s exciting to me that the queer community is starting to find the show more and more. I think it’s a great thing because a lot of people didn’t know it existed or had queer themes in it. I think that as more and more people come to it they’ll start to understand that this is a world where the women are basically dressed like drag queens, calling each other “Mother,” and then hurling magic fireballs. This is a place where gay people are very, very welcome. I’m excited for more and more to find it.
T.J.: You know, I shared on social media a frame grab of the moment where Lanfear has Rand tied to the wheel in Tel'aran'rhiod, and I labeled “I watch Wheel of Time for the plot.” And I just think that moment speaks to a certain kind of gay gaze that I think is resonating with a lot of queer viewers.
Rafe: It’s awesome to see people find it. Hopefully we get more people finding it this season.
T.J.: What I’ve seen so far suggests that’s definitely the case. I’m very excited to keep up.
Rafe: There is a lot of gay content in season three. The books get more and more the deeper they go. The show is doing the same.
T.J.: As you can see from the shelves behind me I’m quite a fan, and I’m in the middle of ThE Shadow Rising right now.
Rafe: That’s a good one to be in with the season coming out now.
T.J.: I’m enjoying seeing the fun ways that the books and the show are reflecting on each other. That’s always one of the best things about watching an adaptation.
Rafe: There’s a lot of The Shadow Rising in this season. I think you see it more present in this season than we’ve ever had a book be present in the season before. This section of the book has a real TV kind of flow to it. The plot lines match up very well with television adaptation. It’s much closer, which I think is nice.
T.J.: And I spend a lot of time speculating on which of the Forsaken are going to appear. My friend and I have been speculating endlessly about who is going to appear other than the three that already have appeared.
Rafe: I think we have a surprise up our sleeves for you.
T.J.: I’ve always found the Forsaken to be some of the most compelling characters in the saga, and I’ve loved what Fares Fares, Natasha O’Keeffe, and
Rafe: Laia Costa, if you’re not obsessed with Moghedien from the books, you will be obsessed with her from the show, cause she is incredible in it.
T.J.: I’ve already been struck by what we’ve seen in seasons two and three. This is the Moghedien that I’ve been waiting for.
Rafe: You’ll love her.
T.J.: Excellent.
Rafe: Well thank you so much, Thomas. It was nice to meet you.
T.J.: It was a pleasure to meet you as well. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I loved getting to hear it straight from the horse’s mouth, as it were.
If you’ve never met Rafe, he is truly one of the smartest and most generous showrunners out there, and we’re so lucky to have him at the helm of this extraordinary series (sorry not sorry for fangirling a bit). I hope you enjoy reading and hearing this interview as much as I did!